Here is my most recent frustrating interchange on the topic:
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I posted this on a overwhelmingly Calvinistic discussion site:
Does Faith Precede Regeneration?
I know that reformed theologians will say that it does. I have heard many reasons given, including, of course, the logic that because man is dead in sin, he cannot have faith until he is regenerated.
My question is this:
Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
This verse, some will say, clearly states that faith precedes salvation, and that salvation includes justification, regeneration, sanctification, and finally glorification. Hence, faith biblically precedes salvation.
What do the respected reformed theologians say about this? (IE Calvin, Spoul, Spurgeon, Piper)
What do you think about this?
_______________________________________
Response by X 40 minutes ago
If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you will be saved.
The (Calvinist) Doctrines of Grace teach that exact thing.
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Reply by Me 31 minutes ago
Yes, but supposing that regeneration is part of salvation,
If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you WILL be regenerated.
"Will" implies it being in the future... after faith...
Does faith, then, logically precede regeneration?
Or does "salvation" not include regeneration?
_______________________________________
Response by X 23 minutes ago
This has already been explained. You hear, the Spirit quickens you and you are given faith (faith is a gift and not from yourself Ephesians 2:8,9). Simultaneously in time, but there is a logical sequence.
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Reply by Me 18 minutes ago
I still don't understand your interpretation of that particular verse.
Of course reformed theologians believe that you are regenerated, and then you are given faith - at the same time, but that regeneration logically precedes faith.
I realize that. However, I am trying to respond to those who put forward that particular verse, in which faith logically precedes salvation.
Is regeneration, then, separate from salvation?
_______________________________________
Response by X 12 minutes ago
My interpretation is what the verse says. If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. It seems what is confusing you about it is that you are reading your theological baggage into a very straight-forward verse.
_______________________________________
Response by Y 8 minutes ago
Does faith precede regeneration?
Yes
_______________________________________
Reply by Me 1 minute ago
Rev - How do Calvinists interpret this verse? I just don't get it
Xulon - You claim that this "has already been explained" - Where?
If your interpretation is all so straight-forward, then why have you not answered my clarifying questions?
IE Is regeneration, then, separate from salvation?
Does faith, then, logically precede regeneration?
Or does "salvation" not include regeneration?
Does Faith Precede Regeneration?
I know that reformed theologians will say that it does. I have heard many reasons given, including, of course, the logic that because man is dead in sin, he cannot have faith until he is regenerated.
My question is this:
Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
This verse, some will say, clearly states that faith precedes salvation, and that salvation includes justification, regeneration, sanctification, and finally glorification. Hence, faith biblically precedes salvation.
What do the respected reformed theologians say about this? (IE Calvin, Spoul, Spurgeon, Piper)
What do you think about this?
__________________________
Response by X 40 minutes ago
If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you will be saved.
The (Calvinist) Doctrines of Grace teach that exact thing.
__________________________
Reply by Me 31 minutes ago
Yes, but supposing that regeneration is part of salvation,
If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you WILL be regenerated.
"Will" implies it being in the future... after faith...
Does faith, then, logically precede regeneration?
Or does "salvation" not include regeneration?
__________________________
Response by X 23 minutes ago
This has already been explained. You hear, the Spirit quickens you and you are given faith (faith is a gift and not from yourself Ephesians 2:8,9). Simultaneously in time, but there is a logical sequence.
__________________________
Reply by Me 18 minutes ago
I still don't understand your interpretation of that particular verse.
Of course reformed theologians believe that you are regenerated, and then you are given faith - at the same time, but that regeneration logically precedes faith.
I realize that. However, I am trying to respond to those who put forward that particular verse, in which faith logically precedes salvation.
Is regeneration, then, separate from salvation?
__________________________
Response by X 12 minutes ago
My interpretation is what the verse says. If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. It seems what is confusing you about it is that you are reading your theological baggage into a very straight-forward verse.
__________________________
Response by Y 8 minutes ago
Does faith precede regeneration?
Yes
__________________________
Reply by Me 1 minute ago
Rev - How do Calvinists interpret this verse? I just don't get it
Xulon - You claim that this "has already been explained" - Where?
If your interpretation is all so straight-forward, then why have you not answered my clarifying questions?
IE Is regeneration, then, separate from salvation?
Does faith, then, logically precede regeneration?
Or does "salvation" not include regeneration?
5 comments:
The bible does not use ''salvation'' in the same way we mean. Regeneration precedes faith (john 6) but faith precedes justification and sanctification and of course glorification. Using fundamentalist terms like ''saved'' like its a billy sunday revival works with lay people from the pulpit but not when it comes to serious bible study.
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